The SV is back

RichVee4 · August 29, 2015, 11:06:37 AM

What started to be Greg's 20th B-Day ride over 49 to Grass Valley yesterday, didnt end so well. Greg, is ok but his SV not so good. He was getting a little overconfident with his pace up 49, I was lead but he dropped back because he kept catching me in the corners, first clue he was going to fast, plus he discovered knee dragging in a few prior corners. In the tight 15mph left hairpin toward the top he said he was going about 40 and over cornering so got on the gas as the corner tightened, he couldn't maintain his lane position and hit some small rocks near the white line enough to send him into the sandy shoulder. Hard to tell exactly after that but he landed next to his bike at good 50 plus feet up the road, bike facing down the hill and Greg laying next to it.

Some tissue injury on side of knees from being tossed over handlebars and slight scrap on wrist where leathers peeled back at wrist. Good he was wearing his full leathers with large knee padding, saved a lot of injury to his knees. No damage to Helmet or gloves. We got really lucky he was able to limp away with no significant injures, very thankful.

Looking at the bike, the frame and engine have no damage, didnt low side. The front wheel and forks are bent, front and rear sub frame, bent with associated damaged plastics, gas tank bent.....

Heck of a way to spend his 20th Bday.

288RR · August 29, 2015, 11:22:15 AM

Glad he is ok. Good thing the bike took most of the crash.

Mel · August 29, 2015, 11:31:00 AM

That sucks, but am glad to hear Greg is OK!

RichVee4 · August 29, 2015, 11:44:12 AM

Thanks. Statistically the highest crash percentage is in the 3rd year or riding, overconfidence plays a big factor. Fit this incident to a tee.

dub · August 29, 2015, 11:47:16 AM

Glad he was wearing gear and came out ok. Sounds like he has much to learn yet.

GreenMachine · August 29, 2015, 12:33:02 PM

Quote from: dub on August 29, 2015, 11:47:16 AM
Glad he was wearing gear and came out ok. Sounds like he has much to learn yet.

Whoa, Rich! Agree with Dub. Many of us can ride what others think is fast because we know the road, literally every crack and turn and angle. Maybe it's an age thing where you and I aren't trying to take something from the road or maybe it's that we know we're not invincible.

Heck, if he had more dirt experience, he should have bermed that hillside with the SV. Probably not pretty for a street bike to do that, but he may not have gone down.

I think the statistics are correct though. I had one really big accident about 3 - 4 years into my riding that actually took me out of riding for over a decade. And it took riding with TB5 to figure out how to have fun with less and less risk.

RichVee4 · August 29, 2015, 01:22:15 PM

I'm pretty certain he wont forget this lesson anytime soon. I still have confidence in his riding, he just needs to take some time to review fundamentals and technique. He's been ready for a track day for awhile and was trying to get one scheduled, much safer place to learn your limits.

GM, I agree, something to be said about older and wiser. I think back to my 20's and I probably shouldn't have had a mc, didnt have a mentor or any proper rider education, gear, etc. I've taught Greg a lot more that I knew at this age, but youth, what can I say.

His line was pretty good and he slowed down at entry just carried to much speed and was accelerating to early before the corner opened up.

GreenMachine · August 29, 2015, 06:06:26 PM

Glad he's okay and will probably continue riding after the bike gets fixed. Better that turn than the one a few turns up the hill going in the other direction; the seemingly innocent enough left hand after the long downhill straight, but no guardrail. I've heard of riders flying through the treetops on that one.

Do your best at getting him to T-hill so he can get more experience under his belt. I love how your whole family is into riding. You guys are awesome!

slmoto · August 29, 2015, 08:07:54 PM

That's a bummer but good to hear he's okay.

Good to know about the high crash rate around year 3, something for those of us newer riders to be aware of.

Vegasrider · August 29, 2015, 10:44:05 PM

Interesting about the 3 year crash stat, 1st I've heard of it. But I've heard of the 3500 miles stat, meaning a new rider will statistically encounter their first crash within their first 3500 miles.

A DRAGON · August 29, 2015, 10:54:09 PM

Well I have to admit I've never heard of the 3 year rule. I've always heard that there are two kinds of riders. Those who have crashed and Those who are going to crash. It's just a matter of time. It happens with motorcycles. Your going to fall. Just hope you don't lose your life. Happy to hear he made out with Judy minor injuries. These bikes are generally unforgiving. Take notice of the Red Flag. Wear your gear (which he did) Broken bones are very hard to recover from.

dub · August 30, 2015, 12:00:03 AM

There are two kinds of riders:

The first kind believes there are two kinds of riders, those who have crashed and those are going to crash. They have a lucky pair of socks, always put their right glove on first, and always get on the bike from the left side. They believe that you have to watch out because you will probably crash in your third year of riding. They think it's just a matter of time until you pay the piper and that crashing is an inevitable part of riding.

The second kind knows that motorcycle don't just magically crash themselves because "it's your time", or because you are in your 3rd year. Motorcycles only do what you tell them to do. If you pin the throttle and just let it go, it will just keep going straight. A motorcycle crashes because you told it to crash with your inputs to the controls. You make the decision to go into that corner too fast. You make the decision to open the throttle too much. You make the decision to lose focus.

One time I was having a conversation with an MSF instructor friend, and she told me she didn't believe there was such a thing as a non-preventable motorcycle crash.
I said 'what about a car rear ending you?' She said 'as soon as you begin to decelerate you should be looking in your mirrors, making sure the car behind you is slowing down too, and you should have an escape route if they aren't'.
I said 'what about a car that blows through a stop sign and t-bones you?' She said 'you should always be making sure the intersection is and will be clear, even if you have the right of way.'
I said 'what about a deer that jumps out right in front of you?' She said 'if you are in an area where there could be deer, you should be extra vigilant to watch for them, reduce speed and be ready to make an emergency stop if you have to'.
She convinced me. Barring some sort of low probability, freak of nature, act of god, I agree that there is no such thing as a motorcycle crash that wasn't preventable.

I think about that conversation all the time. I spend A LOT of time cruising many motorcycle forums. Every time I watch a youtube video or read a story about someone crashing, which is often, the very first thing I think is 'that crash was preventable, what am I going to do to avoid that making that same mistake?'

Jerome, I reject your assertion that "It's just a matter of time. It happens with motorcycles. Your going to fall." I don't believe that to be true. I work hard at not crashing my motorcycle. I deliberately try to learn lessons from other's crashes. I work to always be improving my skills, I keep focused 100% of the time I'm riding, I constantly evaluate my surroundings, I don't ride too fast for conditions. Crashing doesn't just happen. You crash because you did the wrong thing at the wrong time. Weather it was an error in judgement, or an error with your controls. Your job is to not let that happen.

RichVee4 · August 30, 2015, 06:40:24 AM

I dont quite share that instructors optimism that rider behavior can essentially avoid all crashes. You may get to 99% confidence but even the best rider can have a completely unexpected event happen, thats why most intelligent people wear gear. I think of the Tahoe Brian incident, firewood falling off on oncoming pickup on a corner.

If your not familiar with the Hurt Report, named after the Author Harry Hurt, he performed a study of MC accident analysis based on data in LA. I found it an interesting way to help assess the risks and where I need to be more careful.

I looked quickly at the report on line this morning and the actual report is very technical. The version I read way in the book Proficient Motorcycling.

A couple more stats I found that apply to this topic.
In the "single vehicle" accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide-out and fall due to over-braking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.

The study breaks down the remaining %, animals, weather etc.

For multi vehicle accidents
Approximately three-fourths of these motorcycle accidents involved collision with another vehicle, which was most usually a passenger automobile.

That is usually because the car violated the mc right of way. How many times have we heard "I never saw the motorcycle"

GreenMachine · August 30, 2015, 10:06:36 AM

I'm like you Rich, I'm not convinced that every accident can be avoided or that it only comes down to an error that the rider should have or could have avoided. I'll get to that in a minute. There's a lot of merit with what the MSF instructor said. No discounting that, be aware of your surroundings, be on the lookout for danger and have an escape route, just like private pilots are told to do when flying. Those little things don't distract from riding, but they do keep rider focus on safety rather than 100% 'I'm out to get my fun today' kind of "me first" mindset. Point is, have fun, but always be thinking safety and expect that you could have an accident at any time. And if circumstances present you with having an accident, if you're of the proper mindset and riding with safety in mind, it could save your life.

The one factor that I see as being the single biggest contributor to single vehicle accidents, but also as a contributing factor with multi-vehicle accidents, is higher rates of speed. Which brings me back to the first paragraph. If you are an inexperienced rider going twice the legal speed just to make riding appealing to you and you need to go faster and faster to get that 'fun fix,' then that's the sign you should be taking heed of and taking your riding to a track where speed can be exercised in a much safer environment.

If however, you ride like TahoeBrian5, you top out on straights at near the legal speed limit, but you may not necessarily always need to slow down for turns. You take in the excitement of the turns, which is where the riding appeal is for many of us with sportbikes.

So addressing the 'you crash because you did the wrong thing at the wrong time' kind of belief, it's not foolproof. It has tons of merit, but I wouldn't be so naive as to reject all other possible explanations for just one all encompassing conclusion. Here's why, 'shit happens.' I went riding on July 4, 1984. Planned on it being a ride of a couple hours into the foothills outside of Merced, CA, starting at about 11:00 AM. Not wanting the wind noise I took ear plugs for the noisy Shoei helmet I owned. It was one of the first times I used ear plugs. I was set to move out of my parent's house in a month to go to college and didn't have a care in the world.

I made the entire ride, including the hwy 49 snake (or little dragon) outside of Mariposa. It was a good ride. It was sunny, warm, fun, and relaxing. On the way back to Merced, in what amounts to the very last turn, but not really a turn on the flat central valley floor, I crashed hard. The road was clean, the bend in the road was marked as a 55 MPH S-bend for property line errors between two ranches IIRC, with about 1/4 mile of straight in between and long boring flat straights at either end of the S. I was riding at my usual 53 MPH resting on my tank which was my favorite straightline speed back then. And here's the kicker. I don't remember why I crashed. I remember the entire ride up to the point I made the first turn of the S and I remember trying to save the bike in the gravel before hitting a telephone pole and being knocked unconscious, but I don't remember riding down the straight in the S. I was the only vehicle on that lonely stretch of road, so I wasn't passing anyone and I was going below the speed limit, even for the second turn of the S, which I somehow failed to navigate. A 55 MPH bend in the road, where I was doing 15 - 25 MPH turns on the little dragon 30 minutes before.

Did I mention I was young. I had a part-time job, but I didn't work late. I was fully rested and yet somehow in the distance of 1/4 mile, I either got distracted by something or took a nap long enough to go from a relaxed ride home, to 'I'm going to miss this turn. F--k!' Anybody who knows me knows that I often overthink things. I've given that day's events a lot of analysis and that's the best I can come up with. Circumstances point to rider error, but where? How was this preventable? Was it the warm day, so I shouldn't ride on warm days? Was it the ear plugs? I shouldn't wear those anymore? Was it the slow bend and I'm the type of rider that should be more focused on them than slow bends? It's enough to make you overthink any situation, so I don't give it any more thought than that. 'Shit happens.' If it happens again, I probably won't know what the circumstances where that caused it. However, I can keep my emphasis on safe riding, maintain focus while riding, improving my riding and reaction skills (street & dirt). That's the best I can do. I accept what happens from that, because I truly love riding...still. And I'd like to think I'm wise enough to recognized the 32-bit colorful world we live in as just that. To hold a rigid, everything is either black or white world view is one of the most limiting traits a person can adhere to.

slmoto · August 30, 2015, 10:34:04 AM

Regarding Dubs "There are two kinds of riders:" I agree with the first rider assessment for the most part and this is dangerous way to ride as that kind of rider takes little to no responsibility for their own life.

But, while believing that you have to watch out because you will probably crash in your third year of riding is one way to take in consideration the stats Rich presented. I was looking at it more like dubs question to his instructor friend about the situation of a deer running out in front of you. If you are aware that statistically riders tend to crash more in their third year, whatever the reasons for this are, then you can be aware that you may be prone to demonstrate characteristics or lack of focus that could lead to a crash and be extra vigilant to watch for that type of behavior. By no means do I now expect to crash in my third year of riding or that it would be acceptable because statistically that is just what happens.

The rest of dubs input on the second kind of rider I believe in whole heartily. I too watch videos of other riders crashing. Not because I like to see them crash but because I rather learn from their mistakes than make them myself.

I believe crashing in the street should be viewed as unacceptable not inevitable. And if I ever experience the later I'm sure it will be in part, if not fully, of my doing.

GM, being knocked unconscious and not remembering why you crashed can hardly account to "shit happens", that is ridiculous. I'm sure you can't truly believe that just because you don't remember it that it was not possibly preventable or riders error. From the conditions you describe it sounds like it could be nothing but rider error or maybe mechanical failure. Not that you should dwell on it for the rest of your life but I'm sure you didn't just magically crash for no reason.