What started to be Greg's 20th B-Day ride over 49 to Grass Valley yesterday, didnt end so well. Greg, is ok but his SV not so good. He was getting a little overconfident with his pace up 49, I was lead but he dropped back because he kept catching me in the corners, first clue he was going to fast, plus he discovered knee dragging in a few prior corners. In the tight 15mph left hairpin toward the top he said he was going about 40 and over cornering so got on the gas as the corner tightened, he couldn't maintain his lane position and hit some small rocks near the white line enough to send him into the sandy shoulder. Hard to tell exactly after that but he landed next to his bike at good 50 plus feet up the road, bike facing down the hill and Greg laying next to it.
Some tissue injury on side of knees from being tossed over handlebars and slight scrap on wrist where leathers peeled back at wrist. Good he was wearing his full leathers with large knee padding, saved a lot of injury to his knees. No damage to Helmet or gloves. We got really lucky he was able to limp away with no significant injures, very thankful.
Looking at the bike, the frame and engine have no damage, didnt low side. The front wheel and forks are bent, front and rear sub frame, bent with associated damaged plastics, gas tank bent.....
Heck of a way to spend his 20th Bday.
Glad he is ok. Good thing the bike took most of the crash.
That sucks, but am glad to hear Greg is OK!
Thanks. Statistically the highest crash percentage is in the 3rd year or riding, overconfidence plays a big factor. Fit this incident to a tee.
Glad he was wearing gear and came out ok. Sounds like he has much to learn yet.
Quote from: dub on August 29, 2015, 11:47:16 AM
Glad he was wearing gear and came out ok. Sounds like he has much to learn yet.
Whoa, Rich! Agree with Dub. Many of us can ride what others think is fast because we know the road, literally every crack and turn and angle. Maybe it's an age thing where you and I aren't trying to take something from the road or maybe it's that we know we're not invincible.
Heck, if he had more dirt experience, he should have bermed that hillside with the SV. Probably not pretty for a street bike to do that, but he may not have gone down.
I think the statistics are correct though. I had one really big accident about 3 - 4 years into my riding that actually took me out of riding for over a decade. And it took riding with TB5 to figure out how to have fun with less and less risk.
I'm pretty certain he wont forget this lesson anytime soon. I still have confidence in his riding, he just needs to take some time to review fundamentals and technique. He's been ready for a track day for awhile and was trying to get one scheduled, much safer place to learn your limits.
GM, I agree, something to be said about older and wiser. I think back to my 20's and I probably shouldn't have had a mc, didnt have a mentor or any proper rider education, gear, etc. I've taught Greg a lot more that I knew at this age, but youth, what can I say.
His line was pretty good and he slowed down at entry just carried to much speed and was accelerating to early before the corner opened up.
Glad he's okay and will probably continue riding after the bike gets fixed. Better that turn than the one a few turns up the hill going in the other direction; the seemingly innocent enough left hand after the long downhill straight, but no guardrail. I've heard of riders flying through the treetops on that one.
Do your best at getting him to T-hill so he can get more experience under his belt. I love how your whole family is into riding. You guys are awesome!
That's a bummer but good to hear he's okay.
Good to know about the high crash rate around year 3, something for those of us newer riders to be aware of.
Interesting about the 3 year crash stat, 1st I've heard of it. But I've heard of the 3500 miles stat, meaning a new rider will statistically encounter their first crash within their first 3500 miles.
Well I have to admit I've never heard of the 3 year rule. I've always heard that there are two kinds of riders. Those who have crashed and Those who are going to crash. It's just a matter of time. It happens with motorcycles. Your going to fall. Just hope you don't lose your life. Happy to hear he made out with Judy minor injuries. These bikes are generally unforgiving. Take notice of the Red Flag. Wear your gear (which he did) Broken bones are very hard to recover from.
There are two kinds of riders:
The first kind believes there are two kinds of riders, those who have crashed and those are going to crash. They have a lucky pair of socks, always put their right glove on first, and always get on the bike from the left side. They believe that you have to watch out because you will probably crash in your third year of riding. They think it's just a matter of time until you pay the piper and that crashing is an inevitable part of riding.
The second kind knows that motorcycle don't just magically crash themselves because "it's your time", or because you are in your 3rd year. Motorcycles only do what you tell them to do. If you pin the throttle and just let it go, it will just keep going straight. A motorcycle crashes because you told it to crash with your inputs to the controls. You make the decision to go into that corner too fast. You make the decision to open the throttle too much. You make the decision to lose focus.
One time I was having a conversation with an MSF instructor friend, and she told me she didn't believe there was such a thing as a non-preventable motorcycle crash.
I said 'what about a car rear ending you?' She said 'as soon as you begin to decelerate you should be looking in your mirrors, making sure the car behind you is slowing down too, and you should have an escape route if they aren't'.
I said 'what about a car that blows through a stop sign and t-bones you?' She said 'you should always be making sure the intersection is and will be clear, even if you have the right of way.'
I said 'what about a deer that jumps out right in front of you?' She said 'if you are in an area where there could be deer, you should be extra vigilant to watch for them, reduce speed and be ready to make an emergency stop if you have to'.
She convinced me. Barring some sort of low probability, freak of nature, act of god, I agree that there is no such thing as a motorcycle crash that wasn't preventable.
I think about that conversation all the time. I spend A LOT of time cruising many motorcycle forums. Every time I watch a youtube video or read a story about someone crashing, which is often, the very first thing I think is 'that crash was preventable, what am I going to do to avoid that making that same mistake?'
Jerome, I reject your assertion that "It's just a matter of time. It happens with motorcycles. Your going to fall." I don't believe that to be true. I work hard at not crashing my motorcycle. I deliberately try to learn lessons from other's crashes. I work to always be improving my skills, I keep focused 100% of the time I'm riding, I constantly evaluate my surroundings, I don't ride too fast for conditions. Crashing doesn't just happen. You crash because you did the wrong thing at the wrong time. Weather it was an error in judgement, or an error with your controls. Your job is to not let that happen.
I dont quite share that instructors optimism that rider behavior can essentially avoid all crashes. You may get to 99% confidence but even the best rider can have a completely unexpected event happen, thats why most intelligent people wear gear. I think of the Tahoe Brian incident, firewood falling off on oncoming pickup on a corner.
If your not familiar with the Hurt Report, named after the Author Harry Hurt, he performed a study of MC accident analysis based on data in LA. I found it an interesting way to help assess the risks and where I need to be more careful.
I looked quickly at the report on line this morning and the actual report is very technical. The version I read way in the book Proficient Motorcycling.
A couple more stats I found that apply to this topic.
In the "single vehicle" accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide-out and fall due to over-braking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.
The study breaks down the remaining %, animals, weather etc.
For multi vehicle accidents
Approximately three-fourths of these motorcycle accidents involved collision with another vehicle, which was most usually a passenger automobile.
That is usually because the car violated the mc right of way. How many times have we heard "I never saw the motorcycle"
I'm like you Rich, I'm not convinced that every accident can be avoided or that it only comes down to an error that the rider should have or could have avoided. I'll get to that in a minute. There's a lot of merit with what the MSF instructor said. No discounting that, be aware of your surroundings, be on the lookout for danger and have an escape route, just like private pilots are told to do when flying. Those little things don't distract from riding, but they do keep rider focus on safety rather than 100% 'I'm out to get my fun today' kind of "me first" mindset. Point is, have fun, but always be thinking safety and expect that you could have an accident at any time. And if circumstances present you with having an accident, if you're of the proper mindset and riding with safety in mind, it could save your life.
The one factor that I see as being the single biggest contributor to single vehicle accidents, but also as a contributing factor with multi-vehicle accidents, is higher rates of speed. Which brings me back to the first paragraph. If you are an inexperienced rider going twice the legal speed just to make riding appealing to you and you need to go faster and faster to get that 'fun fix,' then that's the sign you should be taking heed of and taking your riding to a track where speed can be exercised in a much safer environment.
If however, you ride like TahoeBrian5, you top out on straights at near the legal speed limit, but you may not necessarily always need to slow down for turns. You take in the excitement of the turns, which is where the riding appeal is for many of us with sportbikes.
So addressing the 'you crash because you did the wrong thing at the wrong time' kind of belief, it's not foolproof. It has tons of merit, but I wouldn't be so naive as to reject all other possible explanations for just one all encompassing conclusion. Here's why, 'shit happens.' I went riding on July 4, 1984. Planned on it being a ride of a couple hours into the foothills outside of Merced, CA, starting at about 11:00 AM. Not wanting the wind noise I took ear plugs for the noisy Shoei helmet I owned. It was one of the first times I used ear plugs. I was set to move out of my parent's house in a month to go to college and didn't have a care in the world.
I made the entire ride, including the hwy 49 snake (or little dragon) outside of Mariposa. It was a good ride. It was sunny, warm, fun, and relaxing. On the way back to Merced, in what amounts to the very last turn, but not really a turn on the flat central valley floor, I crashed hard. The road was clean, the bend in the road was marked as a 55 MPH S-bend for property line errors between two ranches IIRC, with about 1/4 mile of straight in between and long boring flat straights at either end of the S. I was riding at my usual 53 MPH resting on my tank which was my favorite straightline speed back then. And here's the kicker. I don't remember why I crashed. I remember the entire ride up to the point I made the first turn of the S and I remember trying to save the bike in the gravel before hitting a telephone pole and being knocked unconscious, but I don't remember riding down the straight in the S. I was the only vehicle on that lonely stretch of road, so I wasn't passing anyone and I was going below the speed limit, even for the second turn of the S, which I somehow failed to navigate. A 55 MPH bend in the road, where I was doing 15 - 25 MPH turns on the little dragon 30 minutes before.
Did I mention I was young. I had a part-time job, but I didn't work late. I was fully rested and yet somehow in the distance of 1/4 mile, I either got distracted by something or took a nap long enough to go from a relaxed ride home, to 'I'm going to miss this turn. F--k!' Anybody who knows me knows that I often overthink things. I've given that day's events a lot of analysis and that's the best I can come up with. Circumstances point to rider error, but where? How was this preventable? Was it the warm day, so I shouldn't ride on warm days? Was it the ear plugs? I shouldn't wear those anymore? Was it the slow bend and I'm the type of rider that should be more focused on them than slow bends? It's enough to make you overthink any situation, so I don't give it any more thought than that. 'Shit happens.' If it happens again, I probably won't know what the circumstances where that caused it. However, I can keep my emphasis on safe riding, maintain focus while riding, improving my riding and reaction skills (street & dirt). That's the best I can do. I accept what happens from that, because I truly love riding...still. And I'd like to think I'm wise enough to recognized the 32-bit colorful world we live in as just that. To hold a rigid, everything is either black or white world view is one of the most limiting traits a person can adhere to.
Regarding Dubs "There are two kinds of riders:" I agree with the first rider assessment for the most part and this is dangerous way to ride as that kind of rider takes little to no responsibility for their own life.
But, while believing that you have to watch out because you will probably crash in your third year of riding is one way to take in consideration the stats Rich presented. I was looking at it more like dubs question to his instructor friend about the situation of a deer running out in front of you. If you are aware that statistically riders tend to crash more in their third year, whatever the reasons for this are, then you can be aware that you may be prone to demonstrate characteristics or lack of focus that could lead to a crash and be extra vigilant to watch for that type of behavior. By no means do I now expect to crash in my third year of riding or that it would be acceptable because statistically that is just what happens.
The rest of dubs input on the second kind of rider I believe in whole heartily. I too watch videos of other riders crashing. Not because I like to see them crash but because I rather learn from their mistakes than make them myself.
I believe crashing in the street should be viewed as unacceptable not inevitable. And if I ever experience the later I'm sure it will be in part, if not fully, of my doing.
GM, being knocked unconscious and not remembering why you crashed can hardly account to "shit happens", that is ridiculous. I'm sure you can't truly believe that just because you don't remember it that it was not possibly preventable or riders error. From the conditions you describe it sounds like it could be nothing but rider error or maybe mechanical failure. Not that you should dwell on it for the rest of your life but I'm sure you didn't just magically crash for no reason.
Very interesting reading and I may have to post up my thoughts here, but you better have a comfortable chair handy, because it will probably be lengthy...stay tuned :)!
By all means Mel!
Quote from: slmoto on August 30, 2015, 10:34:04 AM
...GM, being knocked unconscious and not remembering why you crashed can hardly account to "shit happens", that is ridiculous. I'm sure you can't truly believe that just because you don't remember it that it was not possibly preventable or riders error. From the conditions you describe it sounds like it could be nothing but rider error or maybe mechanical failure. Not that you should dwell on it for the rest of your life but I'm sure you didn't just magically crash for no reason.
I'm not sure I understand how that qualifies as holding the definition of ridiculous (deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd). I remember the slide through the gravel up to the point of crashing. That's not absurd. What I don't remember is why I cannot recall what happened on a straight. The fact that I cannot remember isn't absurd nor an error I can learn from either. I remember before that and after that, but it was what happened on the straight that caused me to continue straight off the roadway into the gravel. I could have lost that memory due to mental block, as people sometimes block out frightening accident memories. I could have been looking around and forgot there was a turn ahead, except that I knew there was a turn ahead, because I had ridden that stretch of road many times before and my sister lived just up the road from where I was headed. I could have fallen asleep briefly, just long enough to run the 1/4 mile +10 foot distance. All those could have been why, but it wasn't a mechanical failure of the bike. Even after wrapping it around the pole, it still started, rode semi-straight, with both tires with normal air pressure. In fact, I repaired it and eventually sold it to a friend who modified it even more and continued riding it.
I was knocked unconscious. I was the rider, so I was at fault; it was my error. But what was the error that I could draw experience from? I don't remember what caused me to continue straight, when I should have turned before going off into the gravel, but I remember trying to correct the bike and the aftermath showed that the bike was sliding in the direction of the turn before impacting the pole. That memory is exact to what we saw in aftermath. I have pictures of that. Turning was the best course. Had I ridden straight on, I would have gone through barbed wire fencing. And I don't think it's absurd that I don't remember nor that after all I've poured into figuring out why it happened, that chalking it up to 'shit happens' is a ridiculous conclusion, when I cannot find anywhere where there is blame; not in one way or in multiple ways. So even if I knew what circumstances lead to me riding straight off the road, given all the other circumstances of that day, I'm not sure there would be or could be anything I or others would learn from it. Was it the ear plugs and warm weather? Just the ear plugs? Just the warm weather? Was it that I didn't have anywhere to be and my mind wandered? Was there a fly in my helmet that I forgot about? How many times since then have I repeated those supposed errors? How many have we all repeated? I'm pretty good about learning, but I can honestly say that there was nothing to be learned from this accident.
I've ridden the corner several times after the accident too. All successfully and in bewilderment as to how the f--k there could have been any way to miss that freakin bend. I could probably ride it in continuous loop for years on end or on every July day until I finally die of old age and never repeat the circumstances that lead up to the accident of that faithful day over 31 years ago. It wasn't attempted suicide. I know it wasn't that. I loved that bike and I was crushed as much as it literally was. My future was bright and I was looking forward to moving away to college.
To say that shit happens isn't the same in my book as it was an act of god or that avoidable errors weren't made. In my book there's only reality. The reality of the circumstances were such that the accident was a fact. What factors contributed to that, I may never know and I from what I do know about all the evidence from that day is that the circumstances that lead up to accident have and will always be present for future rides/drives; the accident shouldn't have happened given what I know. And therefore if there's nothing I can learn from shit happening, I'm willing to accept that as the plausible concrete conclusion and I don't think that's a ridiculous position to defend. :dunno
GM, I never questioned or called your ability to learn from the incident ridiculous. It is very common to experience loss of memory when being knocked out. What's ridiculous in my mind is chalking the incident up to "shit happens".
Quote from: GreenMachine on August 30, 2015, 02:48:29 PM
To say that shit happens isn't the same in my book as it was an act of god or that avoidable errors weren't made.
Your meaning of 'shit happens' is different than mine which may be causing the confusion here. An act of god, non-avoidable errors, bad things out of their control, occurring to someone is precisely what I take from the phrase 'shit happens'.
But what do I know, I don't have a dictionary in front of me.
Quote from: GreenMachine on August 30, 2015, 02:48:29 PM
I'm not sure I understand how that qualifies as holding the definition of ridiculous (deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd)
I do however have access to Wikipedia which includes in it's description of 'shit happens' the following, "The phrase is an acknowledgment that bad things happen to people for no particular reason."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_happens#cite_note-1
;D
Most crashes are preventable. It also helps to know some of the important statistics. Such as the #1 crash due to rider error will be involved in cornering. Or 2/3 of the riders who have crashed were alcohol related, which doesn't mean that they were over the legal limit, just had alcohol in their system which may have diminished their vision and judgement. Greatest area of conflict for motorcyclist will be in or near an intersections. Etc, Etc. Most of us experienced riders know all this.
Every rider begins with an empty bag of experience and a full bag of luck. If the rider is serious about riding, the ultimate goal is to fill up that bag of experience without using up all that full bag of luck. If the riders takes the time to learn by taking some form of motorcycle training course every 2 years (even trackdays), practice their basic riding fundamentals on a weekly basis in an empty parking lot, such as your quick stops and swerves, and know to wear all your safety gear on every ride, most likely that full bag of luck will last that rider a life time.
Some good discussion. Of course there is no right answer, Hate that... Individually we all learn from our experiences but often I hear stories of the things happening that I never would have imagined happening. One reason I enjoy talking to other riders is to learn from their experiences, no sense in learning the hard way!
GM, never heard that story. Almost sounds like a story I would have told my parents, I dont remember how I rear ended that car :) Unless you were doing drugs, doubtful, you must have had a medical issue fatigue, low blood sugar/pressure, memory loss from concussion hard to know. In all seriousness I am glad you are able to tell us about it and can see how not knowing "how" it happened makes it impossible to learn from it.
Mel your turn..
Yikes. I'm really glad he came out okay. ATGATT
A 20th birthday he most definitely won't forget :angel
Quote from: RichVee4 on August 30, 2015, 06:40:24 AM
I dont quite share that instructors optimism that rider behavior can essentially avoid all crashes. You may get to 99% confidence but even the best rider can have a completely unexpected event happen, thats why most intelligent people wear gear. I think of the Tahoe Brian incident, firewood falling off on oncoming pickup on a corner.
If your not familiar with the Hurt Report, named after the Author Harry Hurt, he performed a study of MC accident analysis based on data in LA. I found it an interesting way to help assess the risks and where I need to be more careful.
I looked quickly at the report on line this morning and the actual report is very technical. The version I read way in the book Proficient Motorcycling.
A couple more stats I found that apply to this topic.
In the "single vehicle" accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide-out and fall due to over-braking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.
The study breaks down the remaining %, animals, weather etc.
For multi vehicle accidents
Approximately three-fourths of these motorcycle accidents involved collision with another vehicle, which was most usually a passenger automobile.
That is usually because the car violated the mc right of way. How many times have we heard "I never saw the motorcycle"
Yeah, I'm familiar with the Hurt Report. But, to be honest, I don't care about the statistics. When I'm approaching an intersection, I'm not thinking about the statistical likelihood that a car will turn in front of me; I'm watching out for the car! When I'm in a corner and there is gravel, I'm not thinking about the percentage of single vehicle accidents that are attributed to adverse road conditions; I'm concentrating on making the correct inputs to the controls so I don't crash.
2/3 of single vehicle crashes are due to rider error? Ok, that's easy to avoid. Like I said before, continuously seek to improve your skills, recognize your limits and under no circumstances ride outside of them.
It's the other remaining % that I'm interested in. How do we make sure we don't crash due to those circumstances? The weather is bad? Ok, don't ride too fast for conditions. It's night time? Ok, put on your clear visor and don't over ride your headlights. There's black ice on the road? Well, maybe it was too cold to ride the motorcycle today, shoulda thought ahead on that one.
Yesterday we saw quite a few deer in the foothills. I will admit that there was at least once that I didn't notice the deer standing alongside the road until I was almost right up to them. Luckily for me they just stayed put. But, had one of those deer jumped out in front of me, and we collided, would that have been an unavoidable accident? A lot of people would say "yeah, man, there's nothing you could have done." I say NO!! It would have been an accident caused by me failing to identify a hazard. There was a way to avoid that accident; I just wasn't successful in it's realization. Or how about when I hit that huge pothole recently that destroyed my wheel. I didn't crash, but if I had would it have been preventable? Lots of people would say "that's not your fault, you should sue the city for their crappy roads". When really it was just me failing to identify a hazard and avoiding it.
I like to play a game: Every time I read someone's tale of crashing, or watch a youtube video of someone crashing, (videos are best for this, unless the description is very detailed) I like to figure out a way the crash could have been avoided. Sometimes it's easy; Tim, don't fall asleep while riding a motorcycle! Sometimes it's hard, like Brian's crash.
As far as multi-vehicle accidents, a short section of this video (from about 4:30 to 5:15) sums up my attitude perfectly: click here to start watching at 4:30 (http://youtu.be/JNGD9AAIfFU?t=4m32s). "She can be a bad driver all she wants, it's my job to not let her run into me." I will concede the fact that not 100% of motorcycle crashes are preventable (like maybe a log falling off a truck just as you pass it mid turn). However, I maintain that multi-vehicle car/bike collisions are absolutely 100% preventable. Ride like every car is going to hit you 100% of the time. Car waiting to turn left? It's gonna turn in front of you. Car waiting to pull out of a driveway? It's gonna pull out in front of you. Car next to you in the other lane? It's gonna change lanes into you. Approaching a intersection with a green light? A car is gonna run the red and t-bone you. Follow a car too close? It's gonna slam on it's brakes. Assume that every single car that has the opportunity to cause a collision will do so, and plan what you will do to avoid it.
Scott, I meant to tell you this, but I forgot. I saw this the other week while we were on our way up to Truckee on I-80. We were in the #1 lane and were were passing an on ramp. A few cars were merging into the #3 lane. One of the cars immediately merged again into the #2 lane, right next to us. Were were in staggered formation, and you immediately moved from the right half of the lane, over to the left half of the lane giving yourself a bigger cushion of space should the car keep merging into us. I noticed and I was impressed. That's the kind of shit I'm talking about. Staying vigilant and taking responsibility for your own safety. People involved in traffic collisions love to be victim and point out that the other car was at fault. But the thing is, who cares who was at fault? You're the one laying in hospital with a wrecked bike. You have to take responsibility for your own safety, like you did by simply shifting your lane position, because you are just a sack of meat sitting on top of an engine, and they are surrounded by crumple zones and air bags.
I like what you said in the first part of that post, Rich. I guess if I had to sum up my position on this subject:
Almost every motorcycle crash is preventable. For the rest we wear gear.Whoa, I just hit "preview" to make sure my link worked and now I'm wondering how I just wrote so much. Oh well, thanks for reading.
Enjoyed reading that with my coffee this morning.
In all honesty I was thinking about this last night and I am really having a hard time buying the argument that the majority of these accident are preventable. You have to ask yourself why did they happen, no rider leaves on a ride planning to crash? The critical perspective we are missing is the person involved in the accident. As an observer, its easy to quickly classify these as rider error, etc and feel I could avoid that. To me that leads to a false sense of over confidence.
Reflecting on my own experience, I had a minor crash in my 20's where traffic circumstances caused me to over brake and lowside. I was completely riding within my ability, speed limit etc and felt 0 risk of crashing that day. Circumstances and reflexes dictated that 1 sec before the crash and there was no time to properly analyse the situation, find escape routes etc. Sure, after the fact I know it was rider error and preventable. I should have been looking farther ahead, but we are not computers and people make mistakes.
Greg had no intention of crashing and felt he had the ability to corner at that speed. I am sure Tim had no intention of falling asleep on his bike at 70mph either. Talk to anyone in a crash and I am sure you would hear the same.
What we can prevent is stacking the deck against us for when that 1 sec reaction time is critical. Fatigue, alcohol, excess speed, ear plugs whatever it is that is preventing you from 100% focus on what your doing. If you are 100% focused and employing all the defensive riding strategies you can, no agreement you do reduce you chance of a problem but unfortunately like Mel said previously when your numbers up..... hope you have gear on.
Quote from: RichVee4 on September 01, 2015, 07:17:48 AM
Enjoyed reading that with my coffee this morning.
In all honesty I was thinking about this last night and I am really having a hard time buying the argument that the majority of these accident are preventable. You have to ask yourself why did they happen, no rider leaves on a ride planning to crash? The critical perspective we are missing is the person involved in the accident. As an observer, its easy to quickly classify these as rider error, etc and feel I could avoid that. To me that leads to a false sense of over confidence.
Reflecting on my own experience, I had a minor crash in my 20's where traffic circumstances caused me to over brake and lowside. I was completely riding within my ability, speed limit etc and felt 0 risk of crashing that day. Circumstances and reflexes dictated that 1 sec before the crash and there was no time to properly analyse the situation, find escape routes etc. Sure, after the fact I know it was rider error and preventable. I should have been looking farther ahead, but we are not computers and people make mistakes.
Greg had no intention of crashing and felt he had the ability to corner at that speed. I am sure Tim had no intention of falling asleep on his bike at 70mph either. Talk to anyone in a crash and I am sure you would hear the same.
What we can prevent is stacking the deck against us for when that 1 sec reaction time is critical. Fatigue, alcohol, excess speed, ear plugs whatever it is that is preventing you from 100% focus on what your doing. If you are 100% focused and employing all the defensive riding strategies you can, no agreement you do reduce you chance of a problem but unfortunately like Mel said previously when your numbers up..... hope you have gear on.
I believe you pointed out yourself in your own explanations the ways that the three incidents you gave as examples were preventable.
You in your 20's - could have "been looking farther ahead"
Tim - "falling asleep"
Greg - "felt he had the ability to corner at that speed" Felt being the key word
By all means no one goes out planning to crash but that does not mean if we didn't plan it then it wasn't preventable.
I think when we say preventable and accepting the majority of accidents are preventable we may sometimes be looking at the start of an accident from different starting times. For instance, your crash in your 20's may not have been preventable if you look at the incident starting from the time you began to brake, at that point maybe it was not preventable because there was no longer enough time and space to brake safely from that point on in the situation. However, if you look at the incident starting a quarter mile before the crash then one might conclude that the accident was in fact preventable by having looked further ahead...
It's all easy to look at and analyse in hind sight. And what may be preventable for one person may not be for another of a lesser skill set but then that goes back to riding within your limits... This is where watching videos or discussing on forums can be helpful instead of having to always experience these situations first hand.
I personally still feel that the majority of crashes are preventable but there are of course still the few incidents where there is nothing you can do and there are also incidents that may be preventable but take every bit of skill and luck you have to execute that prevention.
Quote from: dub on August 31, 2015, 06:07:49 PM
Yesterday we saw quite a few deer in the foothills. I will admit that there was at least once that I didn't notice the deer standing alongside the road until I was almost right up to them. Luckily for me they just stayed put. But, had one of those deer jumped out in front of me, and we collided, would that have been an unavoidable accident? A lot of people would say "yeah, man, there's nothing you could have done." I say NO!! It would have been an accident caused by me failing to identify a hazard. There was a way to avoid that accident; I just wasn't successful in it's realization. Or how about when I hit that huge pothole recently that destroyed my wheel. I didn't crash, but if I had would it have been preventable? Lots of people would say "that's not your fault, you should sue the city for their crappy roads". When really it was just me failing to identify a hazard and avoiding it.
I think I may be able to give you a deer example that may not be preventable.
About a year ago my mom was hit by a deer in her car. She was getting on the highway in a wooded area when a deer darted out of the trees and ran into the side of her car. It broke her side mirror and dented her door. I think it was more bad timing for the deer than actually trying to ram her but had that happened to me on a bike I don't know that I would have stayed upright and I don't see how being side swiped by a deer could have been preventable.
Quote from: dub on August 31, 2015, 06:07:49 PM
Scott, I meant to tell you this, but I forgot. I saw this the other week while we were on our way up to Truckee on I-80. We were in the #1 lane and were were passing an on ramp. A few cars were merging into the #3 lane. One of the cars immediately merged again into the #2 lane, right next to us. Were were in staggered formation, and you immediately moved from the right half of the lane, over to the left half of the lane giving yourself a bigger cushion of space should the car keep merging into us. I noticed and I was impressed. That's the kind of shit I'm talking about. Staying vigilant and taking responsibility for your own safety. People involved in traffic collisions love to be victim and point out that the other car was at fault. But the thing is, who cares who was at fault? You're the one laying in hospital with a wrecked bike. You have to take responsibility for your own safety, like you did by simply shifting your lane position, because you are just a sack of meat sitting on top of an engine, and they are surrounded by crumple zones and air bags.
Thanks. You mentioned not too long ago in the new rider section about bicycling in Portland and developing skills like situational awareness, reading traffic patterns, and predicting what drivers are going to do while piloting a 2-wheeled vehicles in traffic
http://www.sierrasportbike.com/smf/index.php?topic=4450.0
I think that is where I get some of it as well, from having a fair amount of bicycling experience in city situations. I used to commute by bicycle 10 miles round trip everyday in Orange County, CA and have spent a few years navigating San Francisco streets by bicycle. Orange County was fairly easy, San Francisco on the other hand you really do need to predict what others are going to do before they do it, even when driving a car there.
Good reading guys. Thanks to those who share their experiences so we can discuss and learn from others. I'm still on the new side of riding and luckily I don't have much to share yet but hopefully by reading and discussing others experiences it will help me continue to have nothing to contribute.
Utimately it comes down to the rider. The more risk you take, greater the chances of happening and understanding the consequences. Speed is usually a very common denominator to most crashes.
When traffic is involved, a rider must always know How, Where and What to look for. Riding actually involves more mental skills than your physical dkills. I think that's where most riders make the mistake. They are relying more on their physicals skills to ride. The objective is to rely on your mental skills so that you don't have to rely on your physical skills to bail yourself out. And if your mental and physical skills fail you only have one other thing to rely on, and that is the amount of safety gear you are wearing.
Hey guys,
I've gathered up my thoughts on all this and ready to post my comments. First, let me be absolutely clear, that everything I have to say is solely my opinion and not meant to be the gospel in any way or form. With that said, I do have some credibility with over 50 years on the street, former dirt track experience, and riding actual sportbikes on the backroads since 1973, starting with my Yamaha RD350. All these years have been always running a spirited pace on the backroads (no cruising, touring, or stopping and taking photos). I have only crashed once so far in all these years back in 1991 on my Honda CB1, and a tip over at almost a dead stop on a banked 180 degree turn. All these years have been on all types of roads and in all conditions, with extensive spirited rain riding experience. I have been very lucky through these years, but there was also a little skill involved :). I will get into luck and skill later on in this post.
First I would like to talk about Greg's crash from the facts that have been posted. There is no doubt that he was riding over his head and out of his comfort zone. I hope he realizes that he used up one of his lives and we never know how many are left ;)! He should be concentrating on getting more experience before even thinking about trying to drag knee...damn you GM ;D! The last thing you want to do is get on the gas as a corner tightens :o! Your brakes are your ally on a motorcycle and braking prowess should be a goal for every rider. Hard trail braking probably would have saved the day, but that is a skill that needs to be honed to be effective without crashing. I won't even get into the argument about trail braking on the street here, but will probably put up a thread on that in the Mel's Diner section soon as I believe in trail braking on the street and have been doing it before it even had a name :)! Greg, if you are reading this, do not be in a hurry to be fast as it will come naturally over time...trust me ;)!
STATISTICS
OK, let's talk about "statistics"! I'm not a believer in statistics as they do not and can not tell the whole story. Who is the statistician? What real experience do they have, and how many years experience? Is it real world experience or just on paper? How were the stats collected? Was each individual interviewed to get ALL the facts? Were they based on police reports? Witnesses? Do they get into rider experience, road conditions, weather conditions, traffic conditions, etc etc etc...I think you get my point ;)! So to finish this statistics section off...no I do not believe in the 3 year rule :|)!
CRASHING
The subject of crashing can be very confusing, so I will try to break it down and explain my thoughts on it. The phrase "There are those that have crashed and those that are going to crash" has some validity to it, and here's why. A lot of riders just want to enjoy a leisurely pace, be that commuting, touring, or just riding in the mountains. This type of rider, if they always concentrate on all the safe riding techniques, and as Dub so accurately pointed out, treat ALL cars as the enemy, they might not ever crash in their life! Now on the other side of the coin, there are riders that enjoy a faster pace then leisurely, even up to a spirited pace. This type of rider will more than likely at some point in his riding career, go down, most likely due to rider error. Most on this forum that enjoy the more sporting pace have reported going down at one time or another, which kind of backs up my way of thinking on the subject.
Are there preventable and non preventable crashes? The answer without a doubt in my mind is yes and yes! Preventable crashes like stated in many posts in this thread are when you are concentrating at a 100% level at all times, never riding out of your comfort zone, and all the other circumstances that were brought up. I think everyone agrees on this ;). It seems there is some disagreement on the non preventable side of the argument. I want to say right up front that I believe in non preventable crashes and have real world experience to back it up. When I crashed back in 1991, I was exiting an uphill corner still over on the side and got blinded by the sun and saw the oil slick across both lanes a fraction of a second before I went down. Nothing I could do before immediately hitting the deck and breaking my collarbone. Now the doubters could say you were going too fast for conditions, which I will get into very shortly, or you should have seen the sunlight, but those would be the ones that weren't there in the real world. Trust me, this was a non preventable crash... period!
On the subject of deer in the road, those that say you should have seen the deer, just don't have lots of years of experience up in the mountains. The ones that will get you are the ones that dart out in front of you from nowhere. I have been lucky so far on this and had close calls with a few deer that have run across the road in front of me. I just got by them before they crossed or they crossed right in front of me and I just missed them. I have hit 2 deer square on in my truck over the years, and believe me they came out of nowhere on a dead run!
The last real world story about non preventable crashes is about my friend that was killed 3 years ago in the Santa Cruz Mountains. He was probably the fastest and smoothest rider I have ever ridden with, and absolutely the fastest rain rider I have ever seen. He also was a former multiple AFM champ with extensive roadracing experience. On the day he was killed, he was leading a ride on a road he had ridden a zillion times over the years and knew it blindfolded. In a left hand sweeper he suddenly went down and slid over the side of the road and 75 feet down into a creekbed. The guys looked for liquid or something on the road surface that would cause him to lose the front, but it was absolutely clean, dry pavement. The only thing that they could think of for the cause of the accident was a rock or pine cone falling across the road into his front wheel's path that left the road after contact with the wheel. There is no doubt in my mind that this was a non preventable crash, because I knew his riding experience and had been on countless rides with him. As I stated before and Rich brought up in this thread, it was just his time to go and his luck had run out ???.
Still in the crashing category is the phrase "Too fast for conditions". I guess the conditions being things like road surface, traffic, weather, trees and cliffs on the roadside, to name a few. That phrase has different meanings really based on a rider's experience. What's too fast for some riders could still be in the comfort zone of other riders ;). So, I guess what I'm saying is that before using that phrase, make sure you have taken in the experience of the individual rider in the conditions being talked about. For those riders that enjoy the spirited pace, or even the hooligan pace 8), know that you are in the risk zone for sure and are willing to accept the fact that your luck could just run out. I have ridden all these years and will continue to do so knowing and accepting the risks involved with a spirited pace. You can have all the skill in the world, but you definitely need some luck on your side to survive ;)!
I want to finish this off with some comments on learning all you can about staying upright on your bike in all conditions. I see that a few of you watch all the crash videos you can to help in not making the mistakes those riders made in the videos, and I applaud you for that and your desire to improve your riding skills. I also enjoy those types of videos, but I will finish this out by bringing up what I talked about in the opening paragraph. I have lost count over all these years of the crashes I have personally seen right in front of me in the real world up in the mountains, and that has really helped me hone my skills over the last 50 years...without a doubt 8)! Stay safe guys and remember, all this rambling is just my own opinion, so no need to argue it :)!
:clap Mel, you summed this up perfectly, thanks for sharing your insights. I really appreciate everyone contributing your experiences and thoughts. I will defiantly have Greg read this thread and discuss what lessons were learned from this experience. There is no one to blame for Greg wanting to drag knee and agree that more skill is need, ideally practiced at the track.
Unless anyone has more to add I say we move on to a new discussion. My hope is that we wont need to revisit this for a long time.
Quote from: Mel on September 01, 2015, 03:12:36 PM
... He should be concentrating on getting more experience before even thinking about trying to drag knee...damn you GM ;D! ...
I'm with Rich. :clap
Just a clarification for those who think or repeat the falsehood that I drag knee on the street or have badges or stuff like that:
I don't!
I haven't dragged knee since the early 80s. Says so right in the Diner thread as I've explained it in reply #1 (http://www.sierrasportbike.com/smf/index.php?topic=4320.msg41423#msg41423) and I've already explained that point to Mel in the past. I wish it would stop being repeated as fact.
That's all I want to add.
One thing I will add here as a fairly new [street] rider: Bike technology can also help reduce common crashes. Two of the most common crashes I have seen (both in real life and on YouTube) are brake-induced low sides and throttle-induced high sides. While they're not perfect (no technology is), ABS goes a long way to solving the first situation, and traction control goes a long way to solving the second. I'm a firm believer that ABS should be standard on all street bikes; Europe is mandating it on every motorcycle sold from 2016 on. Yes, you can learn braking skills to not lock the front wheel, and yes you can learn to control your survival reactions when panic strikes, but those take a long time to master. The first few years of riding are filled with inexperience, and those are the years when these tools can help the most. ABS has saved my skin (literally) a few times when braking and suddenly hitting dirt / wet leaves / etc.
I enjoy speed but it scares me on public roads. Maybe that fear diminishes with time, but with 20,000 miles under my belt I'm still afraid of coming around a turn on Ebbot's / Monitor / Geiger and seeing an RV or something crossing the line into my lane. It's happened a few times to me, and fortunately I had time (and space) to correct for it and miss the obstacle, but it's always in the back of my mind that someone could be road-racing their car coming the other direction, losing control, and I'll be the one coming around the turn the moment they totally lose it and hit me.
My other fear is roads in the mountains with steep cliffs and no guardrails. The story of Mel's friend is literally my worst nightmare (it's happened to me in my dreams before). Guardrails are no fun to crash into, but it's better than falling down a cliff from a fatal height. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to take such roads at more than a leisurely pace. It's like a phobia of mine... Deathophobia? Cliffophobia? Fallingaphobia? ;D
Anyhow, just my $0.02. Glad Greg is okay! Crashing is not fun, but any crash you can walk away from is a good crash.
Quote from: RenoRider75 on September 02, 2015, 02:29:03 PMIt's like a phobia of mine... Deathophobia? Cliffophobia? Fallingaphobia? ;D
What you are describing is common sense.
Cool. Nobody has accused me of having any sense before! Maybe I am finally growing up. ;D
Thought I would do a quick update to this post.
The SV is back together and had its maiden ride today. Greg did the majority of work sourcing parts and putting it all together. Another good learning experience and his wallet is a little thinner now. The list of parts got pretty long but still cheaper than a new used bike.
Replaced a lot of the front and rear bits, but frame and engine were untouched. Did the Chinese fairings, less that OEM, but you get what you pay for.
Did a little run to Verdi today, took side streets there and hwy back. Did good.
This is the pretty side, the other side has a dent in the tank.
Good to see it back together.
And glad this is not a new crash. I forgot about this post and when I saw the title initially I thought you crashed, glad that's not the case.
:clap
I'd like to have a rebuild story to tell about Dragon's dragon bike, but it keeps getting put off.
Nice work to the both of you. Looks great. Hope Greg can join us for some rides this year, it'll make four of us on a ride. ;)
Quote from: GreenMachine on April 02, 2016, 08:17:29 PM
:clap
I'd like to have a rebuild story to tell about Dragon's dragon bike, but it keeps getting put off.
Nice work to the both of you. Looks great. Hope Greg can join us for some rides this year, it'll make four of us on a ride. ;)
Jerome crashed one of his bikes?
No. Engine rebuild. Seized up at RFR by another rider way back when.
Don't know if you remember his Kawasaki with the custom dragon on the fuel tank. That bike. It's just sitting collecting dust, getting old.
I do remember that bike. That must have been a while ago.